eve-chatsubo

Jade; the roleplay implications are terrific. CVA is still trying to get itself wrapped around organizational roleplay, particularly since running Providence was how we (for better or worse) defined ourselves for so long. Lots of internal discussion about where we go and what we do, but one thing most of us agree on is that there are a lot of really cool options, and that our future will always involve Providence.

All of that said; one thing that has been recently reaffirmed by Aralis internally is that we stand for an NRDS Providence, and we stand for certain ooc standards of behavior which rule out certain acts of treachery in-game, no matter how interesting and exciting the rp implications.

A common misconception is that CVA has tried to sell itself as better. Different? Absolutely. Better? For some of us, sure. That's why we chose CVA as our alliance and not "some other" alliance. Our standards apply to us. We have a vision of how to play our game and we stick to it.

Treachery goes on all around us. We don't live in a vacuum: sometimes we will benefit by default, sometimes we will be hurt by default. We can't stop playing our game because somebody else played theirs differently. That's the nature of the sandbox. We press forward with all kinds of circumstances and playstyles around us.

As for the name: if Ushra'Khan really feel anything else can be replaced and the name is above all else, then Ushra'Khan are free to take up the offer of purchasing the name back. If ushra'khan are not willing to do this, then saying anything else can be replaced but a name is what matters is frankly just a bit of hot air.

If it matters, I know CVA is on the clock for suffering the same sort of fate ("legally" this time) probably ever since the illegal hack job was undone by CCP. That's the game we play, people.

I'm not in the least surprised. Mine, too.

Amen.


Surely you jest! The only thing worth more than the name is our "e-honor".

Jade, I cannot follow your logic.

I am confused how it makes sense for an organization that stands for ordered tyranny, subjugation, obedience to higher authority ("God"), bureaucracy, etc to ally itself with those who are prey on the established order to improve their own position. Pirates, criminals, act outside the system while those inside the system have much to lose from those who prey upon it.

A theocracy (or any organization), seeking converts (or members), no matter it's morality will attempt to pass itself off as "good."

The idea that the Amarr see themselves as evil and thus would align with those who prey on disorder and civilization (criminals) would "stretch my suspension of disbelief to the breaking point."

I doubt various historical individuals, many of who owned slaves, thought of themselves as evil.

There are no factions that are objectively evil in EVE. that's why the setting is interesting.

Not even the pirate factions are evil, except from the point of view of some of the opposing forces.

E.g. the Blood raiders drain the blood of people they capture. They are a contender for being objectively evil, but then there is their religious aspect, where they say that all are welcome to join their religion and be Gods chosen, making them more open and inclusive than some of the Amarr religion.

The Sansha have/had a utopian vision, where people do not need to die in space, and art and culture can be explored.

The Guristas rejected the conventional Caldari life, where the corporation has such a large influence in a person's life, and instead a person can be themselves.

That sort of thing.

Objective good/objective evil, to me, means there's little reason to interact with anyone else and explore background and interpret it. X is "good", Y is "evil", what reason is there to develop a point of view beyond that?

Very few people who are 'evil' in any sense of the word see themselves as evil. Also, I believe that CCP liked the Amarr culture to appear very dogmatic, rather than evil. Sticking to their guns and beliefs no matter what, sometimes leading to great good, at other times to great evils.

I would certainly have trouble role-playing a character that sees himself as 'evil', I wouldn't be able to create a convincing set of motivations for such a character, it would turn into a shallow cardboard character shouting cartoony phrases.



I think your IC perspective is throwing you for a loop there. I am certainly not trying to roleplay what you are saying, and very few people in the Amarrian bloc are (there are some of course). Why are you thinking CVA are trying to play that? Is that truly how you see Amarr OOC?



Actually, from the IC Amarrian perspective, people like UK and Star Fraction embracing pirates and scum is removing their mask and be true to themselves. This is also what is alluded to in many threads concerning the cooperation between Star Fraction and pirate entities like Final Stand. This is part of the tension between the factions, both try to do good and consider the other as evil, and try to demonize their opponents if possible.

This is EVE. There are no clear good guys and bad guys, no good and evil in EVE. It is a universe consisting of many with shades of gray. I think many chronicles (like secret dealings of Sisters of EVE with piratical organizations) are meant to illustrate this point specifically.

I think trying to play (or paint) organizations or cultures as inherently good or evil actually diminishes the RP atmosphere rather than improve it.

Edit: removed some of the more adversarial sounding remarks.

Out of interest, what was the value of the offer? Any url?

Edit: nvm

i see you have already convinced yourself.

my condolences Garreck. CVA is dead.

from this incident forward it is nothing but an simulacrum play-acting to the founding ideals of honor and sportsmanship.

It's always interesting to see which pilots who openly support various forms of trickeration and social engineering in the name of spunky roleplay will come forward and spout judgement on CVA for doing less.

"The old CVA is dead" is a sentiment as old and strongly held as CVA's initial venture in 0.0. It was said by detractors when PIE left. It was said by detractors when we started playing for keeps against U'K and actually trying to take their space. It was said when we used towers in 9uy. It was said any time we temp-blued -A- in various fights in Catch. It was said when IAC brought Goons into Provi to defend against Tri. It was said when we made the move against -A- to invade Catch (that one at least turned out to be true from a strategic standpoint ) Now it's being said because Hydra took advantage of a traitor in U'K's midst and CVA didn't [do whatever outsiders felt was a more CVA-y action.]

I'm numb to a lot of things in Eve and I guess I'm kinda numb to that sentiment as well. It's a bit old and too often inaccurate...and even more often coming from people who think that saying "I would have done it but I didn't expect you to" is even close to a reasoned, objective argument (not your words specifically, Michael, but something I've seen a lot of as relates to this specific incident and others). Not to mention the innaccuracy (in this case) of us having DONE anything at all!

i should clarify.

i've always been a loud supporter of CVA, but now (to me) it is a grotesque parody.

CVA will never be "dead" in the sense that pilots will populate it's corpse and wriggle in at least some mimicry of life. But the CVA that was is no more, just like the CVA that went from Empire base to Null Sec base died and spawned something new. these chrysalis moments are usually good, but this one I don't abide. sportsmanship matters in my opinion…and it is only my opinion of which i speak (a rather insignificant voice the cacophany).

the CVA is dead. long may she rest.

And that's your oppinion. I don't have much to say about CVA OOC as I've hardly ever had any interaction with them in any form, but to mirror your oppinion on CVA, my oppinion on SF is pretty much the same. SF died quite some time ago, and the SF of now is merely a semblance with a different way of working, entierly.

Despite of this I don't think anyone here will much care what my oppinion on SF is - you will shrug and move on, much the same way I'm sure CVA goes 'whatever' and get's on with their lives. In their oppinion, CVA might be better than ever, despite whatever you, me or anyone might have to say.

Being a relatively new member of JF, and again relatively new rp'er in general, I'd actually like to hear your opinion elaborated on that, BB.

CVA isn't CVA anymore, PIE isn't PIE anymore, SF isn't SF anymore, EVE isn't EVE anymore....

I find it all pretty meaningless, people change, situations change, but the foremost change occurs in ourselves, causing to look at others in a different way.

Of course X isn't X from the past anymore, and yes, it all used to be more fun when it was all new.

I'm also quite curious to hear what Bloodbird thinks SF was in the "grand old days" that we've now apparently lost.

Mainly because only comments I've seen from Bloodbird about SF tend to be generally negative and criticising us for executing nationalists at their memorials.

Are you under the impression that we didn't do this in the past?

That's quite the coincidence there, far as I can recall that's the only thing I've really nagged on you for too, so it would be the only major thing I'm negative about you for, too.

To get to the point... "CVA is dead" is about as valuable a viewpoint or statement as me pointing out the below:

Star Fraction is dead, whatever the organization as a whole was before or believed before is now replaced with Jade's personal oppinion aided by that of Cosmo every now and then, SF died when Jade took the helm to steer the whole show wherever said character's personal wim goes. For instance, Jade won't shoot Revan, but SF will shoot Nation supporters, yet SF as a whole will ignore and even HELP Revan because Jade said so, espite Revan being a Nation supporter.

Ergo SF is no longer in control, SF is dead, becasue what we have now is a 400-500 (I can't recall how many) strong alliance of thugs bullying whomever Jade says, helping whomever Jade says, their word is contradictory and can't be trusted.

As an outsider looking in that's a realistic image one might get of the situation, and that paints SF in a very bad light. I'm personally betting that, because I'm NOT in SF I most likely don't have the complete picture (and likely never will) ergo my viewpoint is likely flawed. I'd hope it's flawed because the alternative is that I'm right; SF is one person's private bullying force. Most likely not true, but I wouldn't know.

Obviously, any kind of hard-held proof to demonstrate why things are not so would be grand.

---

And there you go. Things change all the time, so I agree with Merdaneth, saying tha "X is dead because it was different before" is meaningless regardless of who X happen to be at the time.